Interview 3 (Takahashi) from Kamen Rider Genm VS Lazer Official Mook ~ SELECT ▶ LIFE ~
When Takahashi Yuya-san wrote the third and final episode of "Kamen Rider Ex-Aid Trilogy Another Ending," he focused on the relationship between Kujou Kiriya and Dan Kuroto, who is the "root of all evil" in the series. The "Kamen Rider Genm VS Lazer" that was created was congested because of the presence of all the characters that had been built up over the years since the main TV series. What are his thoughts on "Ex-Aid" now that he has finished writing a work that took over a year to complete?
同じ位置のふたりだから
Because they are in the same position
『仮面ライダーエグゼイド』において、バグスターウイルスやゲーム病にまつわる諸悪の根源は檀黎斗です。テレビ本編の途中から宝生永夢たちCR側の味方のように振る舞い、突飛な言動でコメディリリーフにもなりました。しかし「彼はバグスターとしてでも生きていていいのだろうか」ということを、（プロデューサーの）大森さんがずっと考え込まれていたんです。そして「檀黎斗が『エグゼイド』で始めた物語を、きちんと終わらせよう」というスタッフの見解の一致が、このVシネマ「仮面ライダーエグゼイドトリロジーアナザーエンディング」の始まりでした。
In "Kamen Rider Ex-Aid", Dan Kuroto is the root of all evil related to the bugster virus and game disease. Since the middle of the TV series, he has been acting like an ally of Hojo Emu and the others on the CR side, and his outlandish words and actions have made him into a comic relief character. But Omori-san (the producer) kept pondering, “Is it okay for him to live even as a bugster?” Then, the staff agreed that "we should properly finish the story that Dan Kuroto started in Ex-Aid", and that was the beginning of this V-Cinema "Kamen Rider Ex-Aid Trilogy Another Ending"
大森さんが企画書の冒頭に「皆さんは黎斗が諸悪の根源だと忘れていませんか」と書いていたのですが、それは制作側だけであって、ご覧になってきた皆さんからは「忘れてないよ!」という声が上がると思いましたが (笑)。とにかく黎斗の所業を終わらせるということが、Vシネマ3部作における最大の命題。ただし黎斗にはファンも多くいますし、僕にとっても愛着のあるキャラクターですから、納得のいく、終わり。とはどんなものだろうかと考えまして。行き着いたのが、九条貴利矢の存在でした。
Omori-san wrote in the beginning of the proposal, “Have you forgotten that Kuroto is the root of all evil?” It was only on the production side, and I thought that everyone who had seen it would say, “I haven't forgotten!” (laughs). Anyway, the biggest challenge of the V-Cinema trilogy was to finish Kuroto's deeds. However, Kuroto has a lot of fans and I'm also very attached to the character, so I wondered what a satisfying ending would look like. What I came up with was the existence of Kujou Kiriya.
黎斗と貴利矢は本編で人間としては消滅し、バグスターとなって復活した仮面ライダー同士です。しかも檀正宗に面会に行き初め会つたのも貴利矢。そこで「息子を止めてくれ」と言われたことに引っかかりを覚えていたなか、この「ゲンムVSレーザー」では正宗から託されたもので黎斗と戦うことになります。12詰からの話が、うまくオールラストにつながりました。
Kuroto and Kiriya are two Kamen Riders who disappeared as humans in the main story and were resurrected as bugsters. In addition, it was Kiriya who first met Dan Masamune when he went to see him. So, after being asked to stop his son, he will fight Kuroto in "Genm VS Lazer" with what Masamune entrusted to him. And so the story from episode 12 is smoothly connected to the grand ending.
何より貴利矢は、登場人物のなかで一番達観していると言えます。我を通し、感情論や正論をぶつけて対立する人が多いなか、それらをいなして、いなして、本筋だけを突く。ドクターのなかでゲーム病にいち早く気づき、本編の始まりから冷静に向き合うステージにいて、その優秀さも発揮してきました。23話でマキシマムマイティXガシャットが完成したのは、永夢の力も働いトい形すが、リプログラミングクのメカニズムを考えた貴利矢がいてこそ。
Above all, I can say that Kiriya is the most perceptive of all the characters. While there were many people who were selfish and confronted him with emotionalism and righteous arguments, he brushed them off and stuck to the main point. He was one of the first doctors to notice the game disease and has been on the stage calmly facing it since the beginning of the story, and has also shown his excellence. In episode 23, the Maximum Mighty X Gashat was completed thanks to Emu's power, but also thanks to Kiriya, who came up with the reprogramming mechanism.
さらに「ゲンムVSレーザー」で、黎斗がリプログラミングをゲームという枠組のなかで蘇生するメカニズムにまでもっていき、ゴッドマキシマムマイティXガシャットを創り出します。ふたりの知能や発想があって生まれた力であり、黎斗は貴利矢の能力を認めて利用しているからこそ、ゴッドマキシマムマイティXガシャットをマキシマムマイティXガシャットと同型にしているんですよ。ずっとケンカをしてきたけれど、互いの才能で成し得るものが大きいというのも、このふたりの関係性の妙なんですよね。
Furthermore, in "Genm VS Lazer," Kuroto applies the reprogramming mechanism to a framework of revival within a game and creates the God Maximum Mighty X Gashat. It's a power born from the intelligence and ideas of the two of them, and because Kuroto recognizes and uses Kiriya's abilities, he makes the God Maximum Mighty X Gashat the same type as the Maximum Mighty X Gashat. They've been fighting for a long time, but the fact that they can accomplish so much with each other's talents is another strange aspect of their relationship.
『ゲンムVSレーザー』の終盤で、黎斗が人っ子一人いない街を見下ろして、「人がクリアできないゲームをつくってしまった」「時代が私に追いついていない」と言っていますが、そこに貴利矢が現れ、“遊び相手”がいたことに対して、ちょっと笑うんですよね。あそこが個人的に好きでして。まだ自分に向かって来る奴がいることへの喜びを感じているんでしょう。ふたりは精神的な立ち位置が同じであるが故に、お互いに手応えのある相手なんです。永夢は身体能力やバトル面で手応えのある立ち位置にいますが、精神面においては、黎斗と貴利矢が並列しています。まるで“ラスボス”と“裏主人公”の戦いのようですね。
At the end of "Genm VS Lazer", Kuroto looks down at the empty city and says, “I made a game that people can't clear” and “The times haven't caught up with me”. He laughs a little at the fact that he has a "playmate". I personally like that part. I think he's happy that there's still someone who's coming for him. The two of them are in the same mental position, and that is why they are each other's worthy opponents. Emu is in a good position in terms of physical ability and battle, but Kuroto and Kiriya are parallel in terms of spirit. It's like a battle between a "last boss" and a "shadow protagonist".
黎斗の仮面の下を覗くのは貴利矢
Kiriya is the only one who can look under Kuroto's mask
黎斗と貴利矢を対決させるにあたっては、「ゲンムVSレーザー」の中盤で貴利矢が黎斗に言う「淳吾は生き返らない」というセリフが核です。当然ですが、ゲームではなく現実世界で亡くなった人間は生き返りませんよね。ゲーム医療ではないリアルな医療の限界が、貴利矢自身の胸をグサッと刺しているんです。その痛みこそが、貴利矢が黎斗に制裁を加えるうえでの大きな原動力になるのではないかと思いました。
The core of the confrontation between Kuroto and Kiriya is the line that Kiriya says to Kuroto in the middle of "Genm VS Lazer": “Jungo will not come back to life”. Of course, people who die in the real world, not in games, don't come back to life. The limitations of real medical treatment, not game medical treatment, are stabbing into the heart of Kiriya himself. I thought that this pain would be the main driving force for Kiriya to take action against Kuroto.
『パラドクスwithポッピー』ではポッピーから、「ゲンムVSレーザー」では貴利矢から黎斗に、「命の大切さを知ったんじゃないのか」と問わせています。けれど僕は絶対に、黎斗に改心や謝罪や憧悔はさせたくなくて。むしろしないことを徹底させるため、あのやりとりを設けたんです。触れずに進めていくと、彼は母親である檀櫻子の病が医療によって救われなかったという悲哀に支配されて、命をコントロ-ルできるゲームを創っているのではないか....と捉えることもできてしまう。そうではなくて、彼はあくまで自分の才能を誇示しているんです。過程や結果で消滅した人たちが蘇ることがあるかもしれないけれど、それは彼の目的やゴールではない。
In "Para-DX with Poppy," Poppy asks Kuroto if he has learned the value of life, and in "Genm VS Lazer," Kiriya asks him the same thing. However, I never want Kuroto to change his mind, apologize or repent. I wanted to make sure that he didn't do that, and that's why I created that exchange. If I go on without mentioning it, it could be seen that he is creating a game in which he can control life, controlled by the sadness that his mother Dan Sakurako's illness could not be saved by medical treatment... This is not the case. No, he's just showing off his talent. People who disappeared in the process may come back to life, but that is not his purpose or goal.
だからこそ「ゲンムVSレーザー」で貴利矢に「母親を救えない現代医療を憎んだんだ」ということを言われた時も、黎斗は「YES」とも「NO」とも答えません。あのやりとり」には、僕の「黎斗を完全にコントロールしきりたくない」という想いがありまして。彼の一内面や行動原理を明確に定義すると、急に一底の知れたキャラクターになってしまうじゃないですか。さらに正宗からは「生むべきじゃなかった」と言われますが、父から息子への一言葉として衝撃的ですよね。それでも黎斗は、傷ついているのかスルーなのか、どっちともとれる反応をします。彼のことは誰も理解できないところに置いておきたい。「そうなのかも？」という解釈の余地や材料は用意しつつ、あとはご覧になった皆さんに考えていただきたいんです。本心はわからないところがおもしろいと思うので。黎斗の人物像は、そう徹底させてきたつもりです。
That's why when Kiriya tells him in "Genm VS Lazer" that he hates modern medicine for not being able to save his mother, Kuroto doesn't say "yes" or "no". That exchange was based on my desire to not completely control Kuroto. If you clearly define his inner world and his principles of behavior, he suddenly becomes an easy to understand character. Furthermore, when Masamune says to Kuroto, “You should have never been born,” it's a shocking statement from a father to his son, isn't it? Still, Kuroto reacts in a way that could be taken either as hurt or not. I want to keep him in a place where no one can understand him. I want to leave some room for interpretation, and let the viewer think about the rest. I think it's interesting when we don't know the true intentions of the characters. That's what I've tried to do with the character of Kuroto.
『ゲンムVSレーザー』で貴利矢もポッピーも黎斗像を語りますが、あくまで解釈のひとつ。彼が何を想って一連のことを行ったのか、良くも悪くもとれるでしょう。だからこそ彼を取り巻く人たちのなかには彼をうらんでいる人もいれば、理解してあげたり、正しい道に引き戻してあげたいと思っている人もいる。そして貴利矢は、すべての落とし前をつける役割を担った。
In "Genm VS Lazer", both Kiriya and Poppy talk about their image of Kuroto, but it is just an interpretation. It can be taken as either good or bad, depending on what he was thinking when he did the things he did. That's why some of the people around him envy him, while others want to understand him and set him back on the right path. And Kiriya played a role in bringing it all to a head.
ただ黎斗には、生や愛への意識や執着がまったくないわけではありません。自分が生んだゲームキャラクター、なかでも櫻子が媒体のポッピーに対しては、本編でも想いの片鱗を描いてきました。31話で仮面ライダーパラドクスの攻撃から彼女をかばい、「彼女は私が生み出した命だ」と言ったり。44話で彼女が消滅する瞬間には「ゲームマスターの私に許可なく、勝手に消えることは認めない」と言って、自分の体内で培養して復活させましたしね。「パラドクスwithポッピー」で八乙女紗衣子に「彼女が心配なんでしょ」と聞かれると「そんなことはない」と返しますが、ちょこちょこと本音なのかわからない反応をしています。黎斗が仮面をつけているのかつけていないのかは、わかりません。もしつけているとしたら、その下を覗けるのは、嘘つきであり、人の心を見抜ける貴利矢だけです。「あんた、ウソついてない？」と。
However, Kuroto is not completely free of awareness of and attachment to life and love. I've shown glimpses of his feelings for the game characters he created, especially Poppy, whose medium is Sakurako, in the main story. In episode 31, he defended her from Kamen Rider Para-DX's attack and said, “She is the life I created,” and in episode 44, when she was about to disappear, he said, “I will not allow her to disappear without my permission as the Game Master,” and he cultivated her inside his body and revived her. In “Para-DX with Poppy,” when Yaotome Saiko asks him if he's worried about her, he replies, “No, I'm not,” but it's one of those times when you don't know if he's being honest or not. We don't know if Kuroto is wearing a mask or not. If he is, the only person who can look underneath it is Kiriya, who is a liar and can see into people's hearts. "Are you lying?" he asked.
黎斗との決着は、そもそも永夢たちドクターにはつけられないものでした。本編で黎斗が暴れた時も、永夢が「罪をつぐなってください」「ドクターだから命は奪えない」と言ったように、白衣を着ている人たちにさせたくはなかった。貴利矢もドクターではありますが、監察医は人の命を救う職業ではなく遺体を調べる職業であって、永夢たちとは別軸のドクター。立場的な意味でも貴利矢は黎斗の相手として適任で、バグスターになって一度は人間としての命を失っていることもあったので、やはり彼にしかできないんです。最終決戦の前には自らの意志で白衣を脱ぎ、永夢に預けた瞬間から、ドクターという肩書きも完全に捨てて。
The settlement with Kuroto was not something that Emu and the other doctors could have made in the first place. Even when Kuroto went on a rampage in the main story, Emu didn't want to let the people in white coats do it, as he said, “Please answer for your sins” and “I can't take your life because I'm a doctor”. Kiriya is also a doctor, but a medical examiner is a doctor who examines corpses, not a doctor who saves lives, and he is a different kind of doctor from Emu and the others. In terms of position, Kiriya is the right person to be Kuroto's partner, and he is also the only one who can do it, since he once lost his life as a human after becoming a bugster. Before the final battle, he voluntarily took off his white coat, and from the moment he left it in Emu's care, he completely abandoned the title of doctor.
シリーズ全体を通してもトータルの出番がそこまで多いとは言えない貴利矢が、 「エグゼイド」の世界でこれほどまでに活き、人類の役に立つ男になるとは…スタート当初では想像していませんでした。 そんな貴利矢の結末については、映像作品としてはオールラストということで、「エグゼイド」ならではのSF世界における決着として、挑戦的なものだと思っています。 『パラドクスwithポッピー』で遺伝子復元の考え方を描いたからこその可能性の提示でもあるのですが。 2作目で理屈を描けていたので、これをやってもいいだろう…と挑戦させていただきました。
At the beginning of the series, I never imagined that Kiriya, who does not have that many appearances in total throughout the series, would be so active and useful to humanity in the world of "Ex-Aid". As for Kiriya's ending, I think it's a challenging one as it's the last of all the video works, and it's a resolution in the sci-fi style that only "Ex-Aid" can provide. It's also a presentation of possibilities, though, since I depicted the idea of genetic reconstruction in "Para-DX with Poppy". I was able to portray the logic in the second film, so I thought it would be okay to do this… and I took on the challenge.
皆さんは「ゲンムVSレーザー」をご覧になるまでは、黎斗と貴利矢の両方が消滅するのか、もしくは一方が消滅するのかと予想されるでしょうが、結果はだいぶ違ったものになっていると思います。ただ本当のラストシーンは、悲壮感がただようものにはしたくありませんでした。未来への希望のある終わり方というか、「あなたたちはやはり喧々器々やっていくのね」という余韻を残す終わり方にしたかったんです。まさに医療に終わりがないように。
Until you see "Genm VS Lazer", you may expect that both Kuroto and Kiriya will disappear, or one of them will disappear, but I think the result will be very different. However, I didn't want the real last scene to be tragic. I wanted it to end with hope for the future, or rather, I wanted it to leave a lingering impression that “You guys are going to keep fighting it out, aren't you?”. Just as there is no end to medicine.
勝手に生まれていく「エグゼイド」
Ex-Aid was born on its own
1年を超えた「仮面ライダーエグゼイド」が終わりを迎えました。今まで手掛けた作品と「エグゼイド」の大いなる違いは、関わる長さですね。1、2クールくらいの作品ならば、ある程度は結末を決め、計算したうえで進めることもできます。けれど1年となると、キャラクターが自分を超えていくんですよ。自分が操作している段階までで終えられる長さと、キャラクターが育って自分の手を離れる長さというのを、「エグゼイド」で具体的に体感できました。
After more than a year of work, "Kamen Rider Ex-Aid" has come to an end. The big difference between "Ex-Aid" and other works I've worked on is the length of the project. If it's a one or two-course work, you can decide on the ending to a certain extent and make calculations, but if it's a one-year work, the characters go beyond you. In "Ex-Aid", I was able to experience concretely the length of time it takes to finish the game up to the point where I am controlling it, and the length of time it takes for the characters to grow up and leave my hands.
途中から自分が書いているというよりも、登場人物たちが勝手に話しているのを、自然に書きとめている感覚だったんです。こちらが用意したストーリーという“壁”を登場人物たちにぶつけると、彼ならこう言うだろうなというセリフが自然に浮かんできた。特に黎斗は、書いている僕でさえわからない男 (笑)。そんなキャラクターを生み出す不思議で心地いい感覚を、「エグゼイド」では感じることができました。
From the middle of the story, I felt like I was naturally writing down what the characters were saying, rather than writing it myself. When I hit a "wall" with the story that I had prepared, the lines that I thought the characters would say naturally came to me. Kuroto, in particular, is a guy that even I don't understand (laughs). In "Ex-Aid", I could feel the mysterious and comfortable feeling of creating such characters.
黎斗を通して、ゲームクリエイターとしての楽しみも味わわせてもらえましたしね。彼は【裏技】シリーズの「仮面ライダーパラドクス」で、永夢とパラドに自分をCRの筐体から脱出させるゲームを仕掛けています。そのなかで太陽と月と星の間というセクションを設けたんですが、それを今回のVシネマの各冒頭に散りばめているんです。「ブレイブ＆スナイプ」では月が浮かび、 『パラドクスwithポッピー』では光り輝く太陽の下で黎斗と紗衣子がトロピカルジュースを飲む。そして「ゲンムVSレーザー」では、黎斗が星空の下、宇宙にケンカを売るといいますか…。「コズミッククロニクル」と称して、太陽や月で攻撃もします (笑)。黎斗がずっと仕掛けてきたゲームのキーワードとしてリンクさせているんです。こういうネタを考えるのは本当におもしろくて、黎斗に感謝です (笑)。
And through Kuroto, I was able to have some fun as a game creator. In "Kamen Rider Para-DX" from the [Tricks] series, he sets up a game for Emu and Parad to help him escape from the CR cabinet. In that game, he set up a section called "Between the Sun, the Moon, and the Stars," which is scattered throughout the beginning of the V-Cinema. In "Brave and Snipe," the moon floats, and in "Para-DX with Poppy," Kuroto and Saiko drink tropical juice under the shining sun. And in "Genm VS Laser," Kuroto picks a fight with the universe under the starry sky… It's called "Cosmic Chronicle" and it uses the sun and the moon to attack (laughs). I'm linking them as keywords for the game that Kuroto has been working on for a long time. It's really fun to come up with stuff like this, and I'm grateful to Kuroto (laughs).
ロジック的な面で言えば、自分が過去に書いた伏線と呼ばれるものを拾いながら、物語をリアルタイムで紡いでいく手法のおもしろさも味わえました。たとえば永夢とパラドの関係性のように、最初から狙って撒いていたネタもありますが、重要な伏線にしようと思っていなかったネタが、後々活きてくるという体験ができたのも、1年の作品であり、「エグゼイド」だからこそ。やはり言えるのは「おもしろかった」です。
From a logic point of view, I enjoyed the method of weaving the story in real time while picking up what I call foreshadowing that I had written in the past. For example, like the relationship between Emu and Parad, there are some stories I was aiming for from the beginning, but I was also able to experience stories that I hadn't thought of as important foreshadowing that later came to life because it was a year-long work and because it was "Ex-Aid". All I can say is, "It was fun".
と言いつつ、1クール目を書いている時は苦しみましたけどね (笑)。ストーリーにアイテムを絡める手法や流れだったり、仮面ライダーの人数の多さに手こずりまして。仮面ライダーシリーズの脚本に初めて携わったこともあって、慣れていなかったんですよね。けれどだんだんとアイテムの展開の波がつかめるようになり、キャラクターも深まっていったことで、その後はスランプと呼ぶものはほぼなかったんです。立ち上げの時はゼロから生み出しますが、土台ができてからは、例の“勝手に生まれていく”感覚が強まっていったからだと思います。
However, I did suffer when I was writing the first course (laughs). I had a hard time with the method and flow of intertwining items in the story, and the large number of Kamen Riders. It was also my first time working on a script for a Kamen Rider series, so I wasn't used to it. However, I gradually began to grasp the waves of development of the items and the characters deepened, and after that, there was no such thing as a slump. When you start a business, you have to create from scratch, but after the foundation was laid, I think it developed a strong sense of "the story being born on its own".
本来なら永夢と飛彩の物語があれば大我や貴利矢たちはそこまで出番がなくても、1年の作品は描けたんです。でも僕は全キャラクターをいてもいなくても一緒の存在にはしたくない、全員を主役にしても成立する存在にしたいと思って毎話を書いてきたので、そういう意味での苦労は常にありましたけどね。そんななかで女性の仮面ライダーを登場させたり、ニコや灰馬をライドプレイャーにしたり、主要キャラクターを全員変身させられたのも、斬新でおもしろかったです。
Originally, if there was a story about Emu and Hiiro, I could have written a year's work even if Taiga, Kiriya, and the others didn't play that much of a role. However, I didn't want all the characters to be the same whether they were there or not, and I wrote each story with the intention of making them all viable even if they were the main characters, so it was always a challenge in that sense. The fact that we were able to have a female Kamen Rider, turn Nico and Haima into Ride Players, and have all the main characters transform was also innovative and interesting.
結果として、キャラクターの存在感を大切にしてきた自分に救われています。造形もスタート時からブレさせることなく、役者さんたちもそれを軸に、それぞれ魅力を広げて演じてくださったので、このVシネマが完成したんですから。黎斗を演じた岩永徹也くん、貴利矢を演じた小野塚勇人くんは、クレバーで創造的、なおかつ徽密に計算もしながら、常に想像を上回る芝居で、キャラクターの魅力を広げてくださいました。3部作の締めを飾るキャラクターになったのは、おふたりの役への姿勢や芝居力によるところが大きかったと思います。
As a result, I am saved by the fact that I have always valued the presence of the characters. I was able to complete this V-Cinema because I didn't let the form blur from the start, and the actors acted with this as the core, expanding the appeal of each character. Iwanaga Tetsuya, who played Kuroto, and Onozuka Hayato, who played Kiriya, were clever, creative, and calculated to expand the appeal of the characters with their performances that always exceeded our imagination. I think it was their attitude toward the role and their theatrical ability that made the characters the final part of the trilogy.
「エグゼイド」を一緒に創ったキャストさんとスタッフ、そして応援してくださった皆さんへの感謝は尽きません。本当にありがとうございます。本編、スピンオフ、Vシネマ、すべてがずっと愛していただける作品になっていれば、幸いです。
I'm grateful to the cast and staff who created "Ex-Aid" with me, and everyone who has supported me. Thank you so much. I hope that the main story, the spin-offs, and the V-Cinema all become works that people will love forever.